Our ReVolt Pub

Tried Citywalker's method, and some things are clear now.

The beta is definitely using the same collisions as the 1.1, while the alpha doesn't. When you collide to a wall with higher speed, or you got hit by a rocket or water balloon, the outcome is different, it teleports your car after a little time. When you shoot 3 rockets at a car, it's clearly visible if you watch an alpha replay with beta, that the car moves a little when got hit by the rockets, then teleports forward, this means the weapons are stronger in alpha. It occurs in single player too, and split screen too.

Balint12 @ May 3 2013, 07:34 PM wrote:The beta is definitely using the same collisions as the 1.1, while the alpha doesn't.

I confirm this and it happens same way for me as for Balint.
Beta and v1.1 has same collisions, because replay runs EXACTLY same, while on alpha cars teleporting when they collide each other or gets shot, explodes...

So it seems to be in Single Player and Multi Player with Arcade mode.

Huki @ May 3 2013, 01:53 PM wrote:For a start, I'd like to know whether the bug also affects offline modes (single player / time trial). Just try different modes and settings and keep us informed...

We're talking about 1 bug of collision, but for me the reality is like that :
We have 1 difference in the impacts between cars
We have 1 difference in the impacts of rockets, balls
We have 1 difference in the sensibility of driving
We have 1 difference in the degree of steering
We have 1 difference in the car's stability on the road

About impacts between cars, they "stick" to each other when collide like if they had glue on their bodies. This is the most annoying issue for me.

Download video 1
Download video 2
If the video doesn't play on your media player, get the codecs here

This is offline 1.2 alpha 1225. single race, simulation (because I've used simulation my entire life and I know how this mode feels better than arcade).

If anybody can see something unnormal let me know please because I can't see anything (?)

I also confirm what Vaidux, Bálint, Cosmo, Stingox, Dolo and other annoying souls like me have pointed out. The collission differs between latest alpha and 1.1, and not only online. In online races the chances to experience them is increased by the normal lag between players, but offline these can happen too (in less chances).

Capturing the feelings of the car impacts is quite hard, you know. And this is because it is basically a feeling, a sensation; it is a moment in time when the car reacts unnormally to a certain situation in comparison to what we were always used to, specially when we are precise in our movements.

I know for many it's hard to record but Please guys, do it. Record it whenever you can, tape it on video or they won't believe it.

I know some of us would like what CityWalker wonderfully suggested (to take from Beta 0208 and start adding the newer features one by one again) but unfortunately I doubt Huki & Jig will do this..

CW @ Mar 16 2013, 02:34 PM wrote:Huki, seeing that you can’t pinpoint the physics changes - perhaps it would be less time-consuming to just take the latest stable version and insert again the graphics and online changes (you know those well and thus can do it quicker than bug-hunt the latest alphas).

@Phantom: First video is not available (404), second video seems okay to me. Are both videos done with the same version and show just different scenes or is one of them the beta and one the alpha?
If its the first one then perhaps you can also upload a video done with the beta version?
If its the latter one, which one is which?

Also since so many people mentioned problems with fireable weapons and their impacts perhaps a comparison video of such a scene would also be helpful (like you did that in the 2nd video with slow-motion).

I know for many it's hard to record but Please guys, do it. Record it whenever you can, tape it on video or they won't believe it.

Of course people believe it, not only because many people reported that problem but also because they want a bug free game.
But since they say that they didn't change anything in the physics behaviour or anything in that direction I guess they are currently not sure where to look for the problem.
So by showing some example or reproducible scene they might be able to better understand what they have to look for.

I know some of us would like what CityWalker wonderfully suggested (to take from Beta 0208 and start adding the newer features one by one again) but unfortunately I doubt Huki & Jig will do this..

I doubt that too. I don't know exactly what has changed/added since the beta but I think it is quite a lot.

The video speaks for itself...

Collision bug

To eliminate one possible cause I've compiled two test builds:
- The B build should be similar to the current Alpha.
- The A build has some modifications reverted to be closer to the Beta (I know, A and B letters were stupidly chosen...).
For info it also fixes the "SADIST cheat can't be used by joystick users" bug, which makes it easier to test weapons collisions.

This should be extracted above the latest v1.2 Alpha release.

Download

Can you try both build and tell us if you notice any difference (as usual, don't forget to specify the mode: Arcade / Simulation and Online / Offline)

stupid question, in order to do the tests online everyone in the room must use the same build or it doesn't make difference?

@testers: i think we should wait a week at least before making any sudden report, or we would confuse Jig.

Phantom @ May 4 2013, 07:26 PM wrote: stupid question, in order to do the tests online everyone in the room must use the same build or it doesn't make difference?

For this test it doesn't make difference. In fact it doesn't really matter whether you play online or offline (at least I presume). The 13.0504_A build reverts some modifications done to the Wheels physics engine, so it could have an effect on the driving feeling, the steering or the collision with the world...
It also implies it is unlikely to fix the online car-car collision issue we can see in Dolo last video. But it may still have an effect on several of the reported symptoms, so this has to be clarified first, to see if we can definitively eliminate this modification from the possible sources of glitch.

I am starting to think that it made a little difference, but I don't want to confirm yet. I've shared the Build A with many people. Please wait a few more days until more people can try it several times.
At least in these hours of testing offline I felt the driving a little different (for offline only and simulation the car wheels don't stick to each others like on my video). Or at least I couldn't reproduce it again yet which is good.

I agree with you that it won't fix all the collission symptoms in one build, but with this we can be closer to do it. Online testers today said they didn't notice much difference, and now reading your post i understand why. the car-car thing from dolo's video is still there then, but other issues were probably fixed.

I was doing several tests some days ago with lots of video captures together with Cosmo but it is not finished yet. Dolo's video is a good example of the car to car collision bug that we feel. But just as Phantom mentioned in earlier posts it is very difficult to capture the feeling of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdoZIbE2DP8
This is an older video back in the days when we used WolfR4. Comparing this video to Dolo's video you will see that it is much different. Just look at R6TE's collision at 0.06 - 0.07, and later other players like Hil MF collide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5U5HXnato in this scenario at 1.58 we have another push similar to that of dolo's, and this is from rv1.2a12.0815.
If it was 1.1 or early builds this would probably result in a switch. the player that is just a little bit more to the front would likely land in front of the other player.
This could also be used strategically to win "collision" battles where it is now just a random chance for anyone to spin out.

I remember huki thinking that the standard racing mode was Simulation in online races (it is arcade), so I hope he haven't changed anything because of that thought.

Ah, now I get it. At 0.06 R6TE touches your car but it doesn't push you, this is the correct reaction from original re-volt.

Look at 0:19 until 0.22 from the 1st video, even when there's lot of lag huki's car touches you from the back but it doesn't push you.

Also look at 1:08 same video, the contact between Mezza's car to yours is less stronger than what we see now.
When situations like this happen in 1.2, Mezza's car would have been stopped completely (like blocked by an obstacle) and Stingox car would have been moved at the same time in a much harder way. I'll check if i can get a video about this kind of reaction, it is very common.

Thanks for the videos and reports. Unfortunately it hasn't help much so far, but it's still useful anyway.

I've just built another test release yesterday. This one reverts several modifications done to the timing code since last Beta. This may sound like a shot in the dark but I have the feeling some of the glitches could be linked to the timing / lag management, and there was some modifications I have never felt 100% sure about...
I have to admit that if this build doesn't help with the issue I won't have much more ideas.

Download Build C

This build is rather intended to be tested online. Though I tried to double-check everything, I proceeded quite brutally so it may not be perfect. For a more consistent result I strongly suggest that all testers in the room use this version (at least the host and the car you're trying to collide with).

And for info it contains the same modifications than the build "A" I posted on May 4.

If i host a game with the beta 0.0208 in all version there is the 1.1 gameplay...
If i join a game with the beta 0.0208 hosting by a player who have the 1225 in all version there is a bad gameplay... so it's not determinate by the version that we have but determinate by the version that the host have... just about strange collision i mean.

Ok, this is the kind of info that can actually help. I just wonder what you mean exactly by "in all version"? And out of curiosity, how long does it take to be sure you have the 1.1 gameplay of a bad gameplay?

Now can you try to host a game with the Build C above? This would clarify whether this has something to do with timers or not.

Yesterday I made a test to see in which build the bug appears. Every version seems fine up until rv1.2a11.0825.
It is in rv1.2a11.1215 (not 1225) where the bugs begin to affect the gameplay. We had a bug that created huge space between cars as can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zXbT76JGbk

There were also lots of discussions about it in re-volt update thread here: http://z3.invisionfree.com/Our_ReVolt_P ... 443&st=800

it seemed they fixed that space, just that space, but all other bugs coming with it remained. I'm very sure that the problem lies in this version and any other bugs introduced won't be fixed until certain changes made in rv1.2a11.1215 are fixed.
I read through the change log and I noticed many changes made to cars and objects and the way the game should handle it.

Also we tested the C build yesterday and collisions were both different from 1.1 and latest 1.2 version. there were more simple collisions but acted very differently from what 1.1 would do so unfortunately it did not solve the problem.

With the build C the car's collision is not like we can see it on my video...
All version mean that when u create a room on rvhouse, u can choose the 1.2 compatibility (for the late joining) called only 1.2 (players who want to join need the last alphas), or u can choose all version (all players can join, they don't need the last alphas but there is not late joining).

Stingox @ May 8 2013, 05:03 AM wrote:Also we tested the C build yesterday and collisions were both different from 1.1 and latest 1.2 version. there were more simple collisions but acted very differently from what 1.1 would do so unfortunately it did not solve the problem.

Dolo @ May 8 2013, 03:12 PM wrote:With the build C the car's collision is not like we can see it on my video...

Thanks for the info.. would one of you be able to take a video of the changed collisions?

We also have to confirm if there are any more issues offline. With jigebren's A or C build, can anyone try to reproduce the car pushing or any other bug in split-screen, using arcade mode?

Stingox wrote:[...] it seemed they fixed that space, just that space, but all other bugs coming with it remained.

The invisible space was caused by an improper fix for the ship1 star bug. It's definitely not related to any of the other bugs. All of the other physics / collision changes we've made so far were tested and removed when they were known to cause problems (I'm pretty sure the A build removed the last of the changes).

Dolo @ May 8 2013, 10:42 AM wrote:With the build C  the car's collision is not like we can see it on my video...

Hmm, does it mean it's back to normal then?

Stingox wrote:Also we tested the C build yesterday and collisions were both different from 1.1 and latest 1.2 version. there were more simple collisions but acted very differently from what 1.1 would do so unfortunately it did not solve the problem.

Are you actually positively sure of that? Maybe you can give some details about the "acted very differently".

BTW I'd like how long it takes for you to be sure whether the collisions are modified or not (one lap, one race, more...). How do you use to proceed to check a build?

And last, we also wonder how it comes that, in the end, you were only quite a few ones to complain about it? Does it means that other online players don't care, or could it mean that they just don't suffer from this issue?

jigebren @ May 8 2013, 11:46 PM wrote: And last, we also wonder how it comes that, in the end, you were only quite a few ones to complain about it? Does it means that other online players don't care, or could it mean that they just don't suffer from this issue?

I didn't test build A, B and C but I can tell you something
There is realy a difference between lasts Alpha and 1.1, but I'm not enouth good driver to notice a big change. I made too many driving mistakes and still as bad as ever ...

I don't now if it's linked or not but on 1.2 only race with the last alpha I have the bomb bug and not with a all version race with host playing beta

bomb bug = get a bomb as bonus (become black) and drive on a dummy bonus after, explode and loose bomb (only 1 explosion instead of 2 with 1.1 or beta)

sebr @ May 8 2013, 08:16 PM wrote: bomb bug = get a bomb as bonus (become black) and drive on a dummy bonus after, explode and loose bomb (only 1 explosion instead of 2 with 1.1 or beta)

Seb, i think that by "dummy bonus" you refer to a Clone/Fake Pickup. This was a change made by the devs. It is intentional to happen like this from now on.

This is one of the discussed "changes" in gameplay. Some people think that these kind of changes in gameplay should not be made.

-----------------------------------

Stingox wrote:I read through the change log and I noticed many changes made to cars and objects and the way the game should handle it.

Please let me ask this, are those changes really necessary? If they are not, can we go back to a Patch before them and start adding the features like Full Custom tracks support, late joining, etc.?
Maybe this can be the only way to get back to original gameplay and more reliable than with bug hunt.

Because any bug hunt, even if we do it with all our heart and passion, it won't be exactly as revolt original gameplay.

Power of rockets in 1.2 (when i'm shot), no comments...
http://youtu.be/D30QawhWLHM

And new collision with build C in a race hosted by Mezzzz with the 1225, in arcade mode, it smells simulation no ?
http://youtu.be/bxqMk8Fs6pU

jigebren @ May 8 2013, 11:46 PM wrote:BTW I'd like how long it takes for you to be sure whether the collisions are modified or not (one lap, one race, more...). How do you use to proceed to check a build?

One or two race, it's quickly to know, and i test always in online, offline is useless for me.

jigebren @ May 8 2013, 11:46 PM wrote:And last, we also wonder how it comes that, in the end, you were only quite a few ones to complain about it? Does it means that other online players don't care, or could it mean that they just don't suffer from this issue?

They've the same issue, but not important for them...
One player, two players or 50 players who complain, it's the same. The most important is to keep the spirit 1.1... Don't need to divise the community...

Dolo @ May 9 2013, 06:48 AM wrote: The most important is to keep the spirit 1.1... Don't need to divise the community...

divide*

And yes. It is true. We appreciate with all our heart all the efforts you guys have made to improve this game. Without you Re-Volt would probably be dead so you 2 are the main reason why Re-Volt is so alive. But still I want to give you 1 little advice if I can, please don't give the community reasons to use an older patch or stay with 1.1, and your project will succeed. It is not nice to see the community divided like this. For me it's very sad to see so many people wanting to use the Beta because of this problem.

And if this is not a bit obvius yet, I'm trying to convince you to do what CW suggested.

CW @ Mar 16 2013, 02:34 PM wrote:seeing that you can’t pinpoint the physics changes - perhaps it would be less time-consuming to just take the latest stable version and insert again the graphics and online changes (you know those well and thus can do it quicker than bug-hunt the latest alphas).

I think it will be the fastest way because this bug hunt can take months and the final result won't be exactly as the 1.1 spirit that i'm sure everyone love.

Dolo @ May 9 2013, 10:32 AM wrote:Power of rockets in 1.2 (when i'm shot), no comments...
http://youtu.be/D30QawhWLHM

Thanks for the video with the helpful slow-motion. Ok, so when you're shot the rocket effect actually looks disproportionate. But do we agree that when you firing at Mezzz it seems quite normal? (just to be sure, since it means this is quite randomly happening).

Dolo @ May 9 2013, 10:32 AM wrote:And new collision with build C in a race hosted by Mezzzz with the 1225, in arcade mode, it smells simulation no ?
http://youtu.be/bxqMk8Fs6pU

Yep, but on the other side this is a 1225 hosted game, so this is not really relevant here... But when you host a game with build C (and if possible when the distant players also use this build), do you still face bad gameplay?

Dolo wrote:One player, two players or 50 players who complain, it's the same. The most important is to keep the spirit 1.1... Don't need to divise the community...

Yes, that was not the point of my question though. We were just wondering why it appears that some people were not complaining about it. Urne for example (but maybe he hasn't play much online lately).

Phantom wrote:I think it will be the fastest way because this bug hunt can take months and the final result won't be exactly as the 1.1 spirit that i'm sure everyone love.

This is just not going to happens, for good reasons. First, there's not only a few graphics and online changes, there's a huge amount of work between the last Alpha and the last Beta. But this is not even the most important point. The main reason is that if we don't identify the glitch, we're just very likely to reintroduce it again sooner or later. It's as simple. So we HAVE TO find out what's going wrong here.

Jigebren wrote:We were just wondering why it appears that some people were not complaining about it. Urne for example (but maybe he hasn't play much online lately).

I do play Re-Volt a lot, but I have not played Re-Volt online via RV House for a long time. I usually play Re-Volt in Simulation mode over a high-speed Local Area Network (usually ad hoc) and rarely touch Arcade mode because of the good and stable connectivity between players. While playing, neither of the 3-5 participants have experienced any change over the ~2 years we have been playing weekly. We are always using the latest alpha available.

But as for arcade mode and online racing, I don't think I have played enough Re-Volt lately to justify talking about whether there has been a change in collision or not. Besides, when I do play online, I mostly play in pickup races where a lot of other factors are much more likely to determine who wins, rather than a collision bug. As for rockets and water balloons, I haven't noticed any change.

Jig,
you have zero chance of reintroducing physics problems if you leave the physics alone. (And AI for that matter, Huki subtly broke the tuning benefit, too.)
You really don’t need to touch anything in physics, it’s Re-Volt as we know and love it, perhaps even with the bugs it has, if the price for fixing those is physics problems or months of bug-hunting or incompatibility with older tracks.

Citywalker @ May 9 2013, 06:11 PM wrote:you have zero chance of reintroducing physics problems if you leave the physics alone.

In this case it's probably not the physics changes which are called into question (proof is that Build A hasn't fixed the glitch) but the online support. And I'm sure you'll agree that we can't let the online support alone.

Okey, if you're sure the bug is in the online part, then go ahead, of course.

Can u make a fix incompatible with the other alphas ? it's impossible to know who have the good version...

I did a test with Hil, the worst host of the world, but he got the build C, and it's really better about car's collisions than the last alpha, really. it's a first good step i think...

jigebren @ Feb 24 2013, 12:15 AM wrote:

Phantom @ Feb 23 2013, 09:13 PM wrote:The first picture shows the original Cougar which looks completely normal. (0825)
The second picture looks the Cougar with modificated shadow which looks like it's flying. (1215)

Hmm sorry but though I agree you can be used to the old shadow, just turn your camera around the car (in F6 mode) and you'll notice that the new shadow perfectly fits the car. It may looks like it's flying to you because the back of the car is raised, but the shadow looks fine to me. BTW I see your point but I don't think it has actually something to do with the collision issue reports.

We already said that there is not only one problem with the gameplay, like we saw, the collisions, but the driving is different too... and modifying car's height or car shadow also affects our driving for sure, why do you need to change it... ?

I also don't see why the shadow had to be modified if it was perfect.
The cars look very high now (like they're levitating in air), it does not look real and it does not look good.

At least let us choose it by an option or something. If you want to keep this new shadow allright, a new shadow for those who want.

But please let us choose the correct shadow too (which is the original one) for us who don't like the new one.

We are used to the old shadow, yes. Maybe you don't understand how important details like this are for precise drivers, but they are. These details determine our balance and accuracy in the calculations.

May I point out something about this :
I agree about the fact that the original shadow wasn't perfect, and that the new one is more accurate because it is calculated or something like that (I don't know how you did it), but the fact remains that for a game (or even movies) sometimes it is better to cheat just to make things look better (you can find lots of examples).

Also in most cases you have 2 things that are important about lighting : direct illumination and ambiant occlusion, I think the original shadow works better because it "simulate" ambiant occlusion by being too large. That's why players will have a better feedback about where there car is on the ground (the only thing that matter, finally).

'was just my 2 cents anyway.

Phantom @ May 12 2013, 05:35 AM wrote: At least let us choose it by an option or something. If you want to keep this new shadow allright, a new shadow for those who want.

But please let us choose the correct shadow too (which is the original one) for us who don't like the new one.

Why don't both? Maybe Re-Volt should save both shadows option, and created shadows option selection, both original and new one, so we can select easily.

aryo_adhi @ May 13 2013, 07:07 AM wrote:

Phantom @ May 12 2013, 05:35 AM wrote: At least let us choose it by an option or something. If you want to keep this new shadow allright, a new shadow for those who want.

But please let us choose the correct shadow too (which is the original one) for us who don't like the new one.

Why don't both? Maybe Re-Volt should save both shadows option, and created shadows option selection, both original and new one, so we can select easily.

And you don't want to add an option for the tire size, the rim size and the height of the bumpers... ?

Dolo @ May 11 2013, 11:24 PM wrote:and modifying car's height or car shadow also affects our driving for sure, why do you need to change it... ?

Just to make it clear, when I said that the back of the car was raised, I was talking about the shape of the Cougar body. I didn't meant we actually raised the car or anything... Nothing was modified but the visual of the shadow, and not even the height but only the shape, which is a vertical projection of the body + wheels shapes and should look quite accurate (even if there's still room for improvement, maybe).

At least let us choose it by an option or something. If you want to keep this new shadow allright, a new shadow for those who want.

I'm afraid we're not going to create an option for every v1.2 change. The way shadows are managed in v1.2 looks ok to me and I don't believe it's actually misleading the racers. We can still improve the way they new shadows were created. Or if no one like it, simply revert to the old ones. But keeping both sounds overkill.

For info, the shadows were generated by Huki using my Blender plugin. I didn't use Ambiant Occlusion in my plugin because it was way too noisy with the default settings and by that time I didn't know how to improve it. Anyway, AO doesn't really makes sense as soon as the car is in the air...


Now, this is clearly going offtopic. Shadows modification has nothing to do with the glitch(es) we're currently tracking down, so if this discussion has to carry on it'll be split into another topic.

Okay, we give up.

Since the amount of reasons for not using the latest alpha is increasing and the hopes for reverting back some changes like the shadows are dissappearing -together with other changes that affect gameplay as described by Stingox and Cosmo in another thread-, Can we at least have a Beta 0208 with late joining so we can continue with good racing for the following months instead of being an annoyance to you and the other people here like we are being now?

Thanks! we love you and we will always will. But the 3 most important things for an online driver were touched here, and we don't understand why and this is stopping us from having interest in playing online. When whe gameplay in 0208 is perfect:
• Perfect collissions.
• Perfect impact from weapons, no "bomb bug" mentioned by SebR.
• Good shadows.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, I think I found a new bug in build C related to this topic.

With Build C installed, on simulation, rookie cars, go for a Single Race or Championship.
After finishing, check the Replay Mode, press F1 to see the AI driving, and wait until an impact caused by a weapon or a collission between cars happens, and you will see something crazy.

Do it many times to see more weird situations.
I'll upload a video about this in few hours.

Phantom @ May 13 2013, 10:16 PM wrote: Okay, we give up.

Since the amount of reasons for not using the latest alpha is increasing and the hopes for reverting back some changes like the shadows are dissappearing -together with other changes that affect gameplay as described by Stingox and Cosmo in another thread-, Can we at least have a Beta 0208 with late joining so we can continue with good racing for the following months instead of being an annoyance to you and the other people here like we are being now?

Thanks! we love you and we will always will. But the 3 most important things for an online driver were touched here, and we don't understand why and this is stopping us from having interest in playing online. When whe gameplay in 0208 is perfect:
• Perfect collissions.
• Perfect impact from weapons, no "bomb bug" mentioned by SebR.
• Good shadows.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, I think I found a new bug in build C related to this topic.

With Build C installed, on simulation, rookie cars, go for a Single Race or Championship.
After finishing, check the Replay Mode, press F1 to see the AI driving, and wait until an impact caused by a weapon or a collission between cars happens, and you will see something crazy.

Do it many times to see more weird situations.
I'll upload a video about this in few hours.

This is probably the best solution to satisfy us all.
Late joining was an excellent feature, combined with the stability of collisions in 0.208 this would fulfill all demands made by online players.
In addition I find the old shadows to be better suited to the "feel", if you say that options on shadow is overkill.

When this is done, we could step by step add the features from newer alphas to see where the bugs start showing.

Also I confirm the bug in C build during replay commented by Phantom

We are not just 4-5 people here commenting about these collisions bug, we are representing alot of online players from rvhouse that do not come to the forums. The 3 mentioned changes described by Phantom is what we are all experiencing.

Okay, we give up.

Who? What? I don't get it.

• Perfect collisions.
• Perfect impact from weapons
This is the exact point of the this topic if I'm not mistaken...

• no "bomb bug" mentioned by SebR.
This modification was intentional, it can't be called a bug, all the more compared to the original behaviour which was clearly buggy and unintended (just read MythicMonkey's and Urne's answers in the thread you pointed out, I have nothing to add).

• Good shadows.
Placing the shadows modification at the same level than the collision bug doesn't really make sense. One is a bug and the other is just a matter of taste. If all you need is good shadows then v1.2 is ok. All we may have to do is trying to improve the shadow texture generation if the current ones are not perfect. And this is another topic.

About the Replay glitch, you may have noticed that the weapons used during replay are not the same that the ones used during the race. Obviously this is leading to some strange behavior - but this is not meaningful as far as the collision issue is concerned. I don't know which builds are affected BTW. And I didn't notice any issue with the car collisions (Offline-Arcade mode).


Now I have to say I start to feel a bit tired arguing again and again, which is obviously not the point of this topic. Dolo has just said that Build C fixed several (most?) issues... and still we hear complaints about the alpha.
I'll try to provide a slightly updated Build C soon, and I'll be glad that we can concentrate on efficient bug hunting instead of endless discussions, or quibbling about the Original Gameplay™...

EDIT:

We are not just 4-5 people here commenting about these collisions bug, we are representing alot of online players from rvhouse that do not come to the forums. The 3 mentioned changes described by Phantom is what we are all experiencing.

We're not magicians. People not coming to the forum to report bugs can't complain that we're not fixing them.
And Stock cars shadows have been modified more than one year ago. I don't remember we got any negative feedback about it. Now this is suddenly becoming dramatic...

The shadows for me is not a big deal that really changed everything in the gameplay, but there are many small details that I didnt want to make comments on because I knew it wouldnt change anything. And those more important things I commented on might have gotten some attention but it would often be overlooked. Just as long as it was not in favor of developers work and supported by their followers.
I had made comments on the behavior of collisions, behavior of bombs, Rotor speed when upside down(which I dont even care about) and more. But once a change is made, if not a bug, it wouldnt be changed back.
I just remember one situation when lots of people put notice to the raised names above the cars and thats the only thing I can remember that was changed back to normal after update, and if Im not wrong that was also a bug.

As for the C build, It would take a very long time to find all the detailed collision bugs and Im not even sure if the C build is heading to the right way to solve it. Because I didnt find it to be similar to 1.1, not even the collisions. There were more gentle collisions but the behavior was still different from 1.1.

I dont know how much time it takes for the developers but in my point of view it is much easier to add late joining, possibly the shadow effects and the support for custom tracks into the already existing and stable bugfree 0.208. From there we could test the updated features in alphas one by one to see where the bugs are showing up. I want to hear your comments on this.

And please dont pick out few sentences to judge what im saying because I dont mean anything bad but this is the way it has been for me and it is all connected together.

Stingox @ May 14 2013, 06:24 PM wrote:I dont know how much time it takes for the developers but in my point of view it is much easier to add late joining, possibly the shadow effects and the support for custom tracks into the already existing and stable bugfree 0.208. From there we could test the updated features in alphas one by one to see where the bugs are showing up. I want to hear your comments on this.

This has already been suggested several times (and I think jigebren addressed it a while back). If we go back to an old build and start putting back our changes, it would only complicate things, not solve anything. On the other hand, we already proceed in a quite efficient way. There is no reason to feel pessimistic about it.

Right now we are interested in addressing technical issues only, and we're wondering how come this topic is slowly derailing into personal views, nitpicks about other unrelated changes in v1.2. It would be nice if reports in this thread would concentrate on physics / collision issues. If a new shadow or any other thing is troubling anyone, that's not relevant to this post. We could discuss them in the other thread Phantom linked to, but only after this ordeal is over...

@Stingox
Seems to me that I already answered this question in this post, but I'll try to give more details.

>> As for the C build, It would take a very long time to find all the detailed collision bugs
It would take way much longer to take last beta and reintroduce all the later modifications one by one. With Build C we're reverting only the parts that seems relevant, it's more efficient. BTW, the sooner we get feedback, the sooner we can jump to another step. Hopefully the source of the glitch could be identified in a few builds...

>> From there we could test the updated features in alphas one by one to see where the bugs are showing up
Of course. For now there's a single build to test and look at the feedback we got so far... Dolo's post and your very last post. And you're suggesting we should ask to test each features one by one. Ok, I'm sure we'll get plenty of feedback then...

Joking apart, just keep in mind that:
1. The alpha versions have already been released one by one. Releasing them one by one again is not going to change the situation in the slightest, or I'm missing a point.
2. You can ALREADY test all the existing alphas (if you browse the v1.2 topic most download links should still work). Despite this, it's still not very clear which is the very last alpha version to be bug free...

Phantom @ May 13 2013, 06:16 PM wrote: With Build C installed, on simulation, rookie cars, go for a Single Race or Championship.
After finishing, check the Replay Mode, press F1 to see the AI driving, and wait until an impact caused by a weapon or a collission between cars happens, and you will see something crazy.

Do it many times to see more weird situations.
I'll upload a video about this in few hours.

You can see a video if you want in YouTube or download it.

All these clips were taken in Replay Mode, SIMULATION, bronze cup championship. All the slowdowns you see in the clips are not caused by hardware or by recording, they happen exactly the same without recording.

----------------------------------------

Phantom wrote:Okay, we give up.

jigebren wrote:Who? What? I don't get it.?

I meant we give up argueing and discussion because it's useless.

We are in the right point when we feel that Re-Volt is going in a direction we didn't expect, and unfortunately there is no options to have the exact original gameplay back in its pure state (apart from just using the beta for online races as many people in rv house are proposing).

But anyways, this is too much offtopicness already and it's not constructing anything good.

I've double-checked the code and updated the Build C with all the remaining code that still seem relevant to be reverted. At least in Offline mode, if this build has not exactly the same physics behavior than the last beta this would be above my understanding. In Online mode there's still a few points I'll ask Huki to check since it's more "his" part, but the timing management code was reverted to a state known to be stable (the beta release).

A few words about this build though:

- I have not checked yet the Replay bug, so when you watch a Replay the weapons that are fired are likely not the one that were actually used during the race, leading to some strange cars behavior (obviously a rocket doesn't have the same effect than an oil slick).

- By reading the code I am not sure the mode (Arcade / Simulation) is properly sent to the players by the Host. Huki will clarify that point, but for now it'd be safer to ensure that the mode selected in your profile (for offline races) is actually the same than the mode used during the online race.

- And last, Huki has just noticed that the weapons impact is randomized, which means that each time we watch a replay the behavior can be slightly different, even when using the same build. This might be fixed eventually but for now this has to be kept in mind when analysing Replay...

So please try this build and tell us whether gameplay is still different from last Beta or not.

Download Build C2

Once again the test is only relevant if at least both you and the host are using this Build (I have not made it incompatible with other Builds - because I was not sure how to do it - but that would not be a bad idea indeed).

Ok, now is it possible to make an official alpha based on the first build C ? My feeling with this first build was better than the build C2. So it will be interesting to do it, and to put this new patch incompatible with the others old alphas. Then, we can say how the gameplay evolves in multi...

@Dolo: Is there anybody else apart from you that agrees that the build C1 is better?

@Jigebren: what are the technical differences between Build C1 and C2?
I ask because I also felt the Build C1 a little better but I don't know why.

Phantom @ May 18 2013, 05:18 PM wrote:@Dolo: Is there anybody else apart from you that agrees that the build C1 is better?

All the things are better than the alpha 1225 btw...
And to be clear, the gameplay will never be the same than the original or the beta, there are too many modified parameters that can change indirectly the gameplay...

Dolo @ May 3 2013, 08:06 PM wrote:We're talking about 1 bug of collision, but for me the reality is like that :
We have 1 difference in the impacts between cars
We have 1 difference in the impacts of rockets, balls
We have 1 difference in the sensibility of driving
We have 1 difference in the degree of steering
We have 1 difference in the car's stability on the road

Phantom @ May 18 2013, 05:18 PM wrote:@Jigebren: what are the technical differences between Build C1 and C2?

I had stupidly not saved the code in the C1 state to compare with C2. If I made an effort I could try to remember, but since the C1 release I have had unfortunately some more important things in my mind and I'm afraid I won't easily remember every details.

Anyway, thanks for the report, guys.

A few words about my post above.
Huki just noticed me that game mode should be properly transmitted in online gaming, so you don't have to worry about this.
And also that the Replay bug with weapons was just a consequence of the SADIST cheat.

BTW in build C2 I found a remaining inconsistency with weapons timer. Not sure it can be noticeable though.
For now I'm currently re-examining the whole timer management code in details to ensure the online support will be as robust as possible. Once this is done I'll probably release another build for you to test.

jigebren wrote:I'm currently re-examining the whole timer management code in details to ensure the online support will be as robust as possible. Once this is done I'll probably release another build for you to test.

I love you.

By the way, the build C has restored the Sound bug from the sound bug thread. My custom tracks are all silent again.